GSB播客｜Think Fast, Talk Smart-94: 将即兴创作的艺术带入沟通中

来源：斯坦福商学院

如果你总是需要查看笔记，就会错过现场的魔力。这就是为什么AdamTobin、DanKlein和PatriciaRyanMadsen都将即兴技巧融入到他们的沟通中。

作为媒体、表演和戏剧各自领域的传播专家，Tobin、Klein和Madsen都看到了即兴创作在帮助我们更自由地沟通方面的巨大力量。正如Tobin所说：“首先你当然要做好准备，熟悉所有相关的材料和信息，但是随后不要只是执着于具体信息的传递，而是需要了解当下正在发生的事情。”Madsen对此表示同意，并解释说我们不需要得到所有的答案，只需要出现在现场。“要先迈出一步，”她说，“然后再看看自己在哪里。”

在本集播客中，三位嘉宾与主持人MattAbrahams一起讨论了即兴表演如何改变我们从闲聊到工作演示的各种沟通需要，并帮助我们创造足够安全的空间展现最真实的自己。

以下为本期播客的文字整理稿：

MattAbrahams: Hi.Matthere.I’mamazedthatwearetodaycelebratingour100thAnniversaryepisode.Ahugethankyoutoallofyou,ourlisteners.Weappreciateyoursupport,yourinputandyourpassiontohoneandimprovecommunicationskills.Withoutfurtherado,let’sgettoit.Welcometo ThinkFast,TalkSmart:ThePodcast.I’mMattAbrahams,andIteach StrategicCommunication atStanfordGraduateSchoolofBusiness.Icanthinkofnobetterwaytocelebrateour100thAnniversarythanbyinvitingbackourveryfirstguestsfromwaybackinJanuary2020,mygoodfriendsandcollaborators,AdamTobinandDanKlein.Andtoaddtothemixandprovideherexpertise,we’veaskedPatriciaRyanMadsontojoinusaswell.

Asaquickintroduction,AdamTobinisaSeniorLecturerinFilmandMediaStudiesandalsoteachesinContinuingStudiesatStanford.DanKleinisalecturerattheGSBinTheaterandPerformanceStudiesandalsoisaninstructorattheStanfordDesignSchool.PatriciaRyanMadsonisProfessorEmeritafromtheStanfordDramaDepartmentandistheauthoroftheamazingbook,“ImprovWisdom:Don’tPrepare,JustShowUp.”

Welcometoallthreeofyou.Youareallsuchwonderfulimprovisors,teachers,andjustpeopleingeneral.Iamsoexcitedandhonoredthatyou’reallheretohelpusbothcelebrateandlearn.Shallwegetstarted?

AdamTobin: Yes.Sure.Let’sdoit.

MattAbrahams: Well,DanandAdam,itisgreattoonceagainbehuddledaroundamicrophonewithbothofyou.Igaveyousomehomeworkfortoday,andyougraciouslyaccepted.Iaskedeachofyoutolistenbacktoourfirstepisode.AndI’mreallycurious,whataresomekeytakeawaysorideasthatyoufoundmostintriguingandwhy?Adam,whydon’twestartwithyou?

AdamTobin: Sure.Iwasreallystruckwiththeingredientsthatthethreeofuscameupwithattheend,kindofspoketothisoverallpowerandphilosophyofimprov,whichistosay,howdoyoushowup,howdoyoucreateaspacethatissafeenoughforyoutothengetlostalittlebit,andhopefullyyouraudience,too,andexplore,right?SoalotofwhatpeoplearelookingforishowdoIcommunicatebetter,butreallywhatimprovdoesisittrainsyouinhowtobesafealmostwhereveryouare,constructingwithyourlistenerandpartners,awaytocommunicatethatallowsyoutoplayanddiscoveralittlebit.Sothatwastherealtakeawayisyou’rebuildingasafespace,andyou’retryingtodothatalmostineverycommunication.

MattAbrahams: Soit’sthatcollaborationthatyouhavewithyourlistenerandbuildingthatspacewhereitfeelscomfortabletobewhoyouare.

AdamTobin: Allofthosethings,thecollaboration,thelistening,thepresence,sayingyestothingsmakesyouadifferentkindofpowerful,adifferentkindofinvulnerablebecausenomatterwhatcomesyourway,yourphilosophyisI’mgoingtointegratethat;I’mgoingtotakethatin.Andthenallofthat,empoweringyourpartnerandyourlistener,allowsyouandthemtoplay,todiscoversomething,torisk.ThatwasreallywhatIwasthinkingaboutwasit’salmostlikehowdoyoucreateasafespacetogetlostin.

MattAbrahams: Ah,interesting.Right.Soyoufeelcomfortablewiththatbeinguncomfortable.Yeah.SoDan,whatwasthetakeawayyouhadfromourlastconversationsolongago?

DanKlein: Youknow,listeningbacktoit,thethingthatjumpedoutatmewas,Ilovethatstory,Adam,thatyoutoldaboutdrivinguptothecityandgettinglosteverytime,andthenrealizingatsomepoint,wait,I’mstilllost,butI’vebeenlostherebefore,andIknowhowIcangetoutofthis.Andthatwasabreakthrough.AndthenthenextlevelofthebreakthroughwastalkingtoPatriciaandPatriciasaying,oh,no,itgoesbeyondthat.It’sactuallygettinglostisthepoint.Likegetwhatwecangetoutofbeinglostandenjoythat.AndsoIthinkthatgoestothewholethingthatyouweresaying.Themetaphorofbeinglostasbeingsomethingexcitingandpowerfulinaplacethatyoucanactuallyembraceisreallytheessenceofwhatwe’retalkingabout.

AdamTobin: Andit’sfindinganewpath,nottobreaktheparadigmorsomething,butjusttodiscover,tolearn,toenlargeyourworldview.

MattAbrahams: Formanypeoplelistening,thatcansoundreallydauntingtotakethatleapoffaiththatyou’llgetthere.Butwiththethreeofyouhereasourguides,Ithinkit’sreally,reallyinsightfulforpeopletothinkabouthowtheycanbuildthattrustandthatcollaboration.AndPatricia,it’swonderfultoaddyourvoicetothisconversation.AdamandIhavetaughtaclasstogetherforoveradecade,andhetellsthatstoryeverytime.AndIamsothrilledtohaveyouheretoelaborateonthepartofthestorywherehesays—andPatriciasaysIshouldseekoutgettinglost.Andsothankyouforbeinghere.

PatriciaRyanMadson: It’sapleasure.

MattAbrahams: Iwouldlovetohearalittlemoredetailaboutwhygettinglostissopowerful.AndthenI’dloveforyoutospendamomenttalkingaboutyourbook,“ImprovWisdom.”Iamnotjoking,thatbookfundamentallychangedmylife.Adamintroducedittome,andstilltothisdayemploysomeofthelearningsfromthatbook.Soonceyoutalktousaboutbeinglost,I’dloveforyoutopickoneortwoofthekeylearningsfromthereandsharethosewithus.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Seemstomethatgettinglostbeingthepointmeansdevelopingthekindofmindthatlooksatwhateverishappeningandacceptsit.There’safundamentalacceptanceoflife,ofotherpeople,ofwhatever’sgoingonthat’sbuiltintothewholeyesmindofimprov.AndIthinkwhatiscustomaryistomakeajudgmentaboutwhatever’sgoingon—Ilikeit,Idon’tlikeit,Iagreewithit,Idon’tagreewithit,yeah,yeah,yeah.There’sayes-noineveryrelationshiptowhatlifebringsus.Andthenotionofgettinglostisanopenness,awillingnesstoseewhateveritisandworkwithit.

Itdoesn’tmeanI’llnecessarilylikeit,butitmeansthatI’mnotgoingtousethemindofno,whichisverycommonandveryuseful—weneedthemindofnofromtimetotime.Butifwestartworkingonwhathappenstoourexperiencewhenweopentothingsandweworkonacceptanceratherthansomekindofpoliticalview,ifthatmakessense.

MattAbrahams: Sure.Absolutely.Soit’sthisnotionofbeingopenandagileratherthansittinginaplaceoftryingtoputyourpointofviewoutthereontopofit.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Right.

MattAbrahams: Andthat’samessagethatcomesthroughinyourbookforsure.Willyouhighlightoneofyourmaximsthatyougive?They’resohelpfulandeasilyimplementableinsomeways.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Thankyou.Well,Ithinkonethat’simportantisjustshowup.Justshowupisaboutthepowerofyourbodyinmotion.

MattAbrahams: Uh-huh.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Andthatveryoften,westartwiththenotionthatweneedtodecideorthinksomethingthroughverycarefullybeforewetakeanysteps.Sotheimprovisor’smindsuggestsstepfirst,andthenseewhereyouare.

MattAbrahams: Ah.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Soit’sverydifferent—ready,fire,aim.

MattAbrahams: Uh-huh.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Soshowingup,orgettingyourbodythere,isanimportantpart.It’simportantinourlife,too.Ifwewantto,forexample,getanexerciseregimengoing,youshowupattheswimmingpooloratthegym.Showupwherethethingshappenthatyouneedtobe.Soshowingup,Ithink,isanimportantone.

MattAbrahams: WerecentlyhadanepisodewithKatyMilkmanwhostudieshowtoincentourselvestoachievethethingsthatwe’retalkingabout.Andshetalksalotabouttheseinternalhurdlesthatweputinfrontofourselvesthatgetinthewayofshowingup.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Right.

MattAbrahams: AndIthinkyouareremindingallofusthatthewaytoshowupistotakethatfirststep.Andthat’sreallyimportantforallofustothinkaboutbecausewehaveallthisstuffgoingoninourheadsthatpreventusfromtakingthatfirststep.I’dlikeyouto,Patricia,shareonemoreitemfromyourbookthatyouandIhavetalkedaboutsubsequenttothat.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Yeah.

MattAbrahams: Alotofusfeellikewe’realwaysbeingjudgedandevaluated.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Mm-hmm.

MattAbrahams: Andyoutellastory,ifyouwouldn’tmindsharing,whereyouwereaskedtodoareadingataStanfordgraduation.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Yes.

MattAbrahams: Andsomethinghappenedthere—

PatriciaRyanMadson: Mm.

MattAbrahams: —thatyouhadtorespondto.Andyouhaveaveryinterestingtake.Wouldyoumindsharingthatstorywithus?

PatriciaRyanMadson: Behappyto[laughs].Itwasoneofthemostprestigiousmomentsofmylife.IhadbeeninvitedtotheIwasgoingtosaycoronationof—

MattAbrahams: [Laughs]

PatriciaRyanMadson: —anewuniversityPresident.AndIwastogiveareadingfromtheworksofJaneStanford,mydramaticreadingsfollowinganorchestralselectionthathadbeencomposedjustforthisauspiciousevent.Iwaslistening,andthemusicianscametoakindofasoftcrescendoclosing.AndIstoodup,andIwalkedtothemicrophone,andopenedmybook,andsaid,“AndnowthewordsofJaneStanford.”Andthenrightatthatmoment,themusiccontinued.[Laughter]Sothesecondmovementofthepiecebegan.Andoh,wasitclearthatIhadmadeawoo-hoo![Laughter]Totalhumiliation.Butwhatcanyoudo?

SoItookabreath,andIsatbackdown,andIlistened,andIthought,Ishouldreallylistentothismusicbetter.Andtheinterestingthingwas,whenthemusicdidconclude,Igotup,andIopenedthebookandsaid,“AndnowthewordsofJaneStanford.”Therewasthislovelyrippleoflaughterthroughtheaudiencethattheyreallyunderstoodthatmyworlddidn’tfallapart.

MattAbrahams: Right.

AdamTobin: ItalsoremindsmeofDanandthelasttimewespokeonthispodcasttalkedaboutaimforaverageandcheer—

MattAbrahams: Shootforaverage,failcheerfully.

AdamTobin: Failcheerfully.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Failcheerfully.

MattAbrahams: Right.

AdamTobin: Andthatwasfailcheerfully.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Yeah.

MattAbrahams: Right.

AdamTobin: Anditsaidtotheaudience,wedon’thavetoworryaboutPatricia.She’llbefine[laughs].

PatriciaRyanMadson: Yes.Yeah.

AdamTobin: AndwecanreturntothewordsofJaneStanford,right?Andyoudideverythingbylettinggoofyouregoorhumiliationandjustreturningtothetaskathandcheerfully—

PatriciaRyanMadson: Right.

AdamTobin: —justletallofthatdissipate.

MattAbrahams: Yeah.Andthat’swhatItookawayfromthatisthatyouwereabletonotgetlockedupinthejudgingandevaluationofothers.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Mm-hmm.

MattAbrahams: Youwerejustpresentanddidthejobthatyouneededtodo.AndIthinkthat’sreallyimportant.

PatriciaRyanMadson: ThegreatestmomentwasthatmomentwhenIbeganagainwithasmile,andwewerealltogether.

MattAbrahams:Youcreatedasharedexperienceoutofsomethingthatwas—

PatriciaRyanMadson: Somethingthatwentawry,right?

MattAbrahams: Right,right.IwanttopickuponsomethingPatriciasaidbecausewhenweweretogetherbefore,DanandAdam,wedidn’treallytalkaboutnonverbalpresenceatall.ButPatriciatalksaboutsteppingin—

DanKlein: Yeah.

MattAbrahams: —toaction.Andthere’salotthatgoesoninourbodies,inourvoicesthatimpactshowweshowup.AndIthoughtwhatmightbefunforustodoisthere’sanimprovgamethatiscalledGibberishTranslator.Wouldthethreeofyoubewillingtoplaythisgameforus?

Voices: Yes.Sure.Ofcourse.

MattAbrahams: AndI’dlovetohaveadiscussionofitbecauseIthinkthisopensupawholebunchaboutnonverbalpresence.SoI’marbitrarilygoingtopickAdamtobeourtranslator.AndAdamisaverytalentedindividual.NotonlydoeshespeakEnglishfluently,buthehappenstospeaktwoversionsofgibberishverywell.

AdamTobin: That’sright.

MattAbrahams: AndDanspeaksoneversionandonlyoneversionofgibberish,andPatriciahappenstospeakanother.AndwhatI’mgoingtoaskPatriciaandDantodoistohaveaconversation.AndAdamisgoingtoactasourintermediary.He’sgoingtohelpallofusnon-gibberishspeakersunderstandwhatDanandPatriciaaretalkingabout.Sowiththat,Dan,canIaskyoutostartourconversation?AndthenAdamwillhelpustranslate.

DanKlein: [Gibberish]

AdamTobin: Welcome.I’mveryhappytoseeyou,andIhaveanumberofquestionsabouttheopeningofvariousflowers.

PatriciaRyanMadson: [Gibberish]

AdamTobin: Iamsopleasedyouaskedmethat.It’smyfavorite.

MattAbrahams: [Laughs]

DanKlein: [Gibberish]

AdamTobin: Myfavorite,too.Butlet’sgettoit.Doflowersthink?

PatriciaRyanMadson: [Gibberish]

AdamTobin: Theythinkdeeply,verydeeply.

MattAbrahams: Ah,excellent.Thatwassomuchfuntowatchitinrealtime.Sothankyoutoeachofyou.Iwouldlovetodeconstructthisforthelistenerswhatwasgoingonbecause,Ithink,Adam,youdidagreatjobofimposingaconversationwheretherereallywasnone.Itwasjustgibberish.ButbeforeIgettoAdam’spointofview,PatriciaandDan,canyoushareformewhatyouwerethinkingaboutasyouenteredintothisconversation?Youknewyouweregoingtobespeakingingibberish.

DanKlein: Yeah.

MattAbrahams: Whatwasgoingthroughyourheadwhenyouinitiallystarted?

DanKlein: WhatIwasreallytryingtodowasgiveAdamsomeemotionandsomerhythmsothathewouldhavesomeanchortoconnectto.IfIjustdidamonotone,thenhehastomakeitupoutofnothing.AndsoIwantedtogivehimalittlesomething.SoIhopeIwasabletodothat.Thatwasatthestart.

MattAbrahams: Ithinkassomebodylisteningandnotparticipating,IthinkyoudidserveupsomethingsthatAdamjumpedon,andIwanttohearwhatheheard.Butthere’salesson,Ithink,inwhatyoujustsaid,Dan,isthatyouweretryingtoassistyourlistener,Adam,tobesuccessful.

DanKlein: Yeah.

MattAbrahams: Youweremakinganoffer,asI’veheardmanyofyouspeakabout.Patricia,wasthereanythingyouwerethinkingaboutasyouinitiatedthis?

PatriciaRyanMadson: Interesting.Iwasn’tthinkingatall.Infact,Ilovethisgame,especiallygettingtobethegibberishpartofit,becauseIdon’tneedtothinkofwhatI’msayingandthentranslateitintogibberish.Ineedtouttersomethingwithsomekindofanemotionorafeeling.

MattAbrahams: Ah,yeah.

PatriciaRyanMadson: SowhatIwasgoingforwasthesoundofansweringaquestionandleavingthespecificstothetranslator.

MattAbrahams: Soyoucamefromaplaceofemotion,andyouknewthatthewayyousaidsomething,thewayyouinflectedyourvoice,wouldalsobeanofferthatAdamcouldtake[up].

PatriciaRyanMadson: Absolutely.Yeah.That’s—

MattAbrahams: Allright.

PatriciaRyanMadson: —oneofthemainwayswecancommunicateanddoallthetime.

DanKlein: Yeah,infact,whenwesay,ohthisisthebestdayofmylife,peopledon’tbelievethewordswesaid.Theybelievetheemotionwithwhichwesaidit.

MattAbrahams: Yeah,absolutely.SoAdam,whatwereyoudoingtotranslate?Youweregettinglotsofoffersfrombothsides.Whatwereyoudoing?

AdamTobin: Iwastryingtohangontoanythingtheywereputtingoutthere.AndasDansaidandasPatriciasaid,theyputalotoutthere.Therewasvariationintone.Therewasspeed.Therewasemotionalinflection,notjustaquestionorastatement,butthekindoffeelingthattheyweregoingon.

MattAbrahams: Andthatwaswonderful.AdamandIteachaclasstogether,andwewillsometimesusethisasavehicletohelppeopleunderstandvocalexpressionandhowwecanuseourvoices.Nowwhatpeoplecouldn’tsee,becausethisisapodcast,wasyouwerealsowithyourbodiesmakingoffers.SoDanlookedinquisitive,andPatricialookedknowing.Andthroughourbodiesandvoices,we’reconveyinglotsofinformation.Iwanttomakethisveryrealforthoselisteningin.Wehaveexpertsatimprovplayingimprovgames.Improvgamesarefun,andtheycanteachyoulessons.ButIthinkwhatwejustdidtranslatesreallynicelyintosmalltalkandchitchat.

AdamTobin: Mm.

MattAbrahams: Youwalkintoaspace.Youdon’tknowpeople.Youthrowsomethingoutthere,aquestionoraninsight.Andthenifitgoeswell,peopletakethat.Sowhatyoujustdemonstratedandtheideasyoutalkedabout,Ithink,translatereallynicelyintoaverycommonspeakingsituationthatmanypeoplefeeluncomfortablewith.Andthat’stheinsightandtheunlockthatIthinkimprovcanbringiswecantakethese—andIdon’tmeanoffensebythis,butsillygames—

AdamTobin: Sure.

MattAbrahams: —andthenwecantakefromthemreallymeaningfulthingsthatcanhelpus.Socanwejustquicklygoaroundtheroomhere.Whatinsightdoyouhaveoradvicedoyouhaveforsmalltalk?Igetthisquestionallthetime:HowcanIbebetteratsmalltalk?

DanKlein: Ialwaysspeakgibberishwhen[itcomesto]smalltalk.[Laughter]

PatriciaRyanMadson: Mytipforsmalltalkwould—findsomethingthatyounoticeaboutsomeoneelseintheroom.Insteadoftryingtosaysomethinginterestingaboutyourselforwhatyou’vejustdone,ifthere’sawayinwhichyoucanengagetheotherpeopleorfindsomethingtocommentonaboutwhatthey’redoingorwhatthey’vejustsaidorwheretheycomefrom,ifyoucandeflectoffofyourselfontotheotherpeopleintheroom,Ithinkitcanbereallyhelpful.Wherewegetstuckistryingtocomeoffasmasterfulwithsmalltalkorsomethinglikethat.Butifyou’reinterestedinothers,there’salwayssomethingtosay.

I’vegotanewhabitnowpracticingthis.WhenI’moutinthestore,beingcheckedoutbyagrocerypersonorsomewhere,besidessayingthankyouforbaggingmygroceries,I’lltrytopointoutsomething.I’llaskaquestionlike,“Howlonghaveyoubeenstandingonyourfeet?Ohmygosh,howdoyoudothat?Doyouevergettositonastoolorsomething?”AndI’vefoundthatIengageevenstrangerswithacuriousquestion,itoftenlightensuptheirday.

MattAbrahams: SoIheardtwothingsyousaidthere,Patricia,thatIthinkarereallyimportant.Oneis,observeandnoticesomethinginthemomentandintheenvironmentandcommentonthat.Andtheotherisbeinterested.RachelGreenwald,whowasonourshow,hasthiswonderfulsaying:“Insmalltalk,it’simportanttobeinterested,notinteresting.”

DanKlein: Yes.

MattAbrahams: AndIthinkthat’sareallypowerfulwaytolookatit.Thankyou.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Greatquote.

DanKlein: Ijustlearnedsomething.That’sagreatone,Patricia.Theideaoflikecoiningoutsomethinginthe—evenifit’sfairlyinnocuous,like,“That’saredshirt.”Likethatmaystartathing.Andthat’sallyouneed.Youjustneedsomethingtobestarted,beinterestedandfollow.TheinsightthatIwasgoingtogiveisIliketobeinthemode.Whenit’sworkingthebestiselicitingstories.Ratherthanaskingforinformation,trytogetstories.Ilearnedthismanyyearsagowatchingagoodfriendatasummercamp.Andeverytimewewouldsitdownatatablewithguests,shewouldgetthemtalking.Andshehadago-to,whichwasalways,“Howdidyouguysmeet?”

Andthat’ssimplyaninvitationforastory.Anditworkswithanybody.Itdoesn’thavetobearomanticcouple.Itcanbeanypairofpeopleoratrio,“Howdidyouguysmeet?”Insteadofwhereareyoufrom,what’ssomethinginterestingaboutyourhometownthatonlyalocalwouldknow?Ofcourse,Ithinklasttimeweeventalkedaboutthestoryofyourname—

DanKlein: Yeah.

MattAbrahams: —asagreatwayto—ratherthan,“What’syourname,”“Whyareyoucalledwhatyou’recalled?Howdidyougetthat?”Soseekingstoryisreallyafunway.Andtellingstoriesisalittleeasierforus.Sowhenyouasksomebody,it’ssomethingwecando.That’sgreat.

AdamTobin: WhatIloveaboutthisisIthinktheeasyadviceI’veheardisaskquestions,whichcomesfromapositionofputtingyourpartnerfirstandnoticingthings.Butthisgoesbeyondakindofroboticaskquestionsabouttheotherperson.Anditreallyis,beinterested.Findthatperson’sstoryanddigdeeperinthatwaywithoutcrossinganyparticularlines.Butmostpeoplewanttotalkaboutthemselves.

MattAbrahams: Yeah.Andit’ssomethingthattheyknowandsomethingthey’remorecomfortabletalkingabout.I’dliketoturnourconversationtosometopicsthatIknowyouallhavesomethoughtson.IknowthatbecauseI’veinterviewedallofyoubefore,especiallyforthebookI’vegotcomingout.AndoneofthethingsthatIthinkpeoplefindreallyironicorconfusingisyoucanactuallypreparetobespontaneous.Andinfact,it’stoyourbenefittopreparetobespontaneousinsomeways.I’dlovetojusthearthoughtsaboutpreparingtobespontaneous.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Letmestartonthisbecausethesubtitleofmybook,“ImprovWisdom:Don’tPrepare,JustShowUp.”

MattAbrahams: Right.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Ioftenneedtohaveadisclaimerbecausethat’snotexactlytrue.WhatIreallymeantosaybutitwastoolongforasubtitlewas,goahead,prepareallyouwant,spendalotoftimepreparing,doitahundreddifferentways.Andthensetitaside,andthenshowup—

MattAbrahams: Yes.

PatriciaRyanMadson: —sothatthere’ssomewayinwhichpreparationisn’ttheenemy,butitoftengetsinthewaywhenweshowupofactuallybeingtherefullyandnoticingwhatishappeningandwhoelseisintheroom.

MattAbrahams: Youhaveasayinginyourbookaboutyourpreferenceforasurgeon.Wouldyousharewithus—

PatriciaRyanMadson: Ohsure,yeah.

MattAbrahams: —becauseIthinkthatfitsrighthere,yeah.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Iwantasurgeonwhohaspassedalltheexamsandisthetop,topguywhoknowseverythingthereistoknowaboutreplacingmyhip.Butalso,ifsomethinggoesalittleawry,Ireallyhopethey’reanimproviser.Ihopethatthey’reabletolookatthesituation,notfromaformulaicpointofview,butwithfresheyes.Weallneedtodothat.Wecan’tlivebytheformulas,althoughthey’reoftenvery,veryuseful.

MattAbrahams: Right.AndIthinkthat’sagreatwaytocapturethisnotionofprepare—

PatriciaRyanMadson: Mm-hmm.

MattAbrahams: —butbespontaneousbecausethesurgeonshouldknowhowtodosurgery,butinyourcase,heorshemighthavetodosomethinguniqueanddifferent.Thoughtsonpreparingtobespontaneous.

DanKlein: Yeah,IremembergoingintoPatricia’soffice35yearsagowhenIwasaTAforbeginningimprov.Anditwasearlyinthequarter.We’ddoneseveralsessions.AndIwouldgettoseetheplanfortheday.Shewouldsay,“Here’swhatwe’regoingtodo.”Wewouldmeet15-20minutesearly,maybeahalfhourearlyandgoovertheplan.AndthenonetimeIcamein,andIhadjusttakenaclassinSanFrancisco.Isaid,“Oh,Ilearnedthisgreatexercise.”Andwithoutmissingabeat,Patriciasaid,“Let’sdoit.”[Laughter]AndIthought,well,what?Andendedupleadingthisexercise.Sheadaptedtheplanthatwascarefullycraftedandwellthoughtoutandputinsomethingbrandnew.

Istillteachthat[laughs]exerciseinthesamespotintheclassnowthatwehave.Andthatreallychangedmyviewentirely.Prepare,andthenbereadytogooffscriptassoonasthere’sanopportunity.

AdamTobin: Yeah.Itgetsbacktowhatwetalkedaboutatthebeginningofthisconversation,whichisbuildingupatrustinyourself—

MattAbrahams: Right.

AdamTobin: —right?Andsoyoudothepreparationsothatyouareexpertinthematerial.Andthenyouletgoofthespecificdeliveryoftheinformationinfavorofbeingawareofwhat’sgoingonnow.Integratingpresentinformationissomethingthatgetscutofffrompeoplewhojustprepareandreadthescript.

DanKlein: That’sright.

AdamTobin: Soit’sallthepreparation,allthatworkstopsrightwhenyou’reabouttodeliverinsteadoftrustingthatthatstuffhasbeeninternalized.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Haven’tyounoticedthatsomeonedeliveringapreparedspeechhasawholedifferentsoundtothequalityofwhatthey’resayingofnaturalhumanspeech.OneofmyformerStanfordimprovisers,VinceRitchie,hisjobishelpingrightnowJapanesestudentstakeexamsorinterviewstogetintoU.S.colleges.Andhewenttoanimportantconferencewherethesewereallinterviewers.Andhesaidthesinglethingthattheyallagreedthattheyhatedthemostwasthesoundofapreparedanswer.Soveryoftenwhenwe’repreparingforaninterview,we’llthinkofordinaryquestions,andthenwewillwritethemoutandmemorizethem.

Butthat—it’snotthattheansweriswrong,butthere’ssomethingaboutrecitingyourpreparationthatdoesn’treallysoundashumanaswecouldbe.

AdamTobin: Itfeelsdisingenuous,andit’stheexactoppositefromwhatwe’retryingtodo.We’retryingtolookpreparedandprofessionalandbuttoned-up,butthere’ssomethingthatseemsfalseaboutit.Andwhat’sfalseaboutitisit’snotinthepresentmoment.

MattAbrahams: Right.

AdamTobin: It’sanartifactofworkyoudidbefore.

MattAbrahams: Iliketothinkaboutwhatyouallsaidislikeanathlete.Youknow,anathletedoesalotofdrills.Ifyouplaysocceroryouplaybasketball,youdribblearoundorangeconesalot.You’renotdoingthattogetgoodatdribblingaroundorangecones.You’redoingthatsointhegameyouknowhowtodribble,andyou’regoingtohavetoadjustandadapttowhathappensinfrontofyou.Thepersonisn’tgoingtostandstilllikeacone,butthatpreparationfreesyouuptobemorespontaneousinthemoment.

Iwanttoturntothetopicoflistening.Overthesehundredepisodeswe’vedone,oneofthethingsthathassurprisedmeishowimportantlisteningisandhowfrequentlyitcomesup.Asimprovisers,asteachers,I’dlovetohearjustyourthoughtsonlisteningandifthereareanybitsofadviceorguidanceyougivetohelppeoplelistenbetter.Dan,doyouwanttostart?

DanKlein: Sure.Ithinkit’s80percentatleastoftheworkisthelistening.That’swherealltheinformationis.That’swhereallthestuffthatyouneedisinthelistening.Oneofthethingsthatalwaysstrikesmeisthemomentwhenweturnself-conscious,themomentwe’rethinking,oh,howamIdoing,orwhatI’mgoingtodo,orwhatIjustdidisthemomentwe’remissingsomething.Andsodon’tbeatyourselfup.It’sjustaremindertotuneinandpayattentionbecausethere’ssomethinghappeningrightnow.

MattAbrahams: It’sacalltobepresent,andit’sacalltopayattention.

DanKlein: Yeah.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Andwhateverisgoingonbecomesourfood,thatwearefedbynotonlythewordsbutthebodylanguage,thethingwelearnedinthegibberishgame,inwatchingthewholepresentationbecauseitmightnotbethecontentofwhatourpartner’ssayingbutsomethingaboutthewaythey’resayingit,whichleadsustoabetterquestionorsomethingneworanewdirectioninourconversation.

AdamTobin: Popularly,peopletalkaboutreadingtheroom,right?Andit’sthatsenseimprovisorsgetofalmostperipheralawarenessofthethingsgoingonrightinfrontofus,andthenalltheextrainformationthatwe’retryingtointegrate.ThemostusefulideathatIknowaboutlisteningIlearnedfromPatricia,whichisthewindshieldwipers,whichisreallyaboutattention,andthatwhenotherthingskindofcloudyourattention,yourbrainisworkingandit’sevolutionarilytryingtohelpyououtinalltheseways,andyoukindofsay,thankyou,brain,fordoingthatwork.Andthenyou,justlikewindshieldwipers,yougentlymovethose[laughs]aside,andit’saclearpathinfrontofyou,andyourededicateyourfocustothepersonyou’relisteningtoorwatchingorbeingawareof.

Andthensomethingelsewillcomeup,andthewindshieldwiperswillsay,thankyou,brain,justgentlypushthatasideandreassertyourattention.I’vedoneitabunchoftimesinthisintervieweven—whatamIgoingtosay,whatamIgoingtosay?Stopit.ListentoDan’srich-basedvoice—

DanKlein: [Laughs]

AdamTobin: —talkaboutthelistening.

MattAbrahams: Thatvisualization,Ithink,isveryhelpfulbecauseIthinkalotofusgetdistracted.Andthenwebeatourselvesupandwesayallthesenegativethings,likeIwasn’tpayingattention,or,ohno,whatdoIsaynow.Andwejustsay,thankyou,brain.Ireally,reallylikethat.

DanKlein: Mm-hmm.

TheonethingIheardsubtlybeingmentionedbyallofyouisthatlisteningisnotjusthearingthewords.It’showthewordsaresaid.Andalso,wehavetolistentoourselves,thereactionwehavetothosewords.

AdamTobin: Mm-hmm.

MattAbrahams: Solisteningisnotjustexternal.It’sinternalaswell.AsIexpected,thishasbeenabsolutelyfantastic.Andwe’regoingtochangeupalittlebithowweendthispodcast,startingwiththisepisode.IhadthreequestionsIaskedeverysinglepersonallthetime.We’regoingtokeeptwoofthosethree.AndDanandAdam,sinceyouweresokindtoanswerthosequestionspreviously,I’mgoingtosavetwoforPatriciabecausewehaven’theardheranswer.Butforthefirstquestion,Iwouldliketoplayanotherimprovgame.AndoneofmyfavoriteimprovgamesthatAdamintroducedmetowasWordataTime.

SoI’mgoingtoaskthethreeofyoutogivesomeadvicethatyouwouldlikecommunicatorstotakewiththem.Butinsteadofeachofyoutellingustheadviceasawholesentence,you’reeachgoingtocontributeawordatatime.AndIwillattesttothoselistening,theyhavenotpracticedthis.Theydidn’tknowthisquestioniscoming.Thisisspontaneityhappeningnow.Patricia,asournewestguest,wouldyoumindstarting?

PatriciaRyanMadson: Always—

AdamTobin: Keeptrucking—

PatriciaRyanMadson: —when—

DanKlein: —yourtruck—

PatriciaRyanMadson: —seems—

AdamTobin: —to—

DanKlein: —break—

PatriciaRyanMadson: —down.

MattAbrahams: Ah,verygoodadvice.It’saboutpersistence,tenacity,andgritincommunication.BeforeIgettoquestionnumbertwo,canwejustquicklydebriefthatbecausesomeofyouhadwordsthatweren’tbigwords,andothersofyouatmomentssaidwordsthatreallydrovethisinacertaindirection,excusethepun.Talktomeabouthowitfelttosay“the”insteadof“trucking.”

DanKlein: Ittookmeawhiletogetthis,toembodythis,becausewhenyou’redoingit,youthink,well,I’vegottogetagoodword.Ihopeitcomestometogetagoodword.Ifintherhythmofthesentencewhatcomestoyouisnotabigword,it’s“the”or“if”or“when”orwhatever,that’swhat’sneeded.Yourjobisnottosaythegoodword.It’stosaythenextword.Afterplayingitforyears,I’veactuallylosttrack—

PatriciaRyanMadson: Yeah.

DanKlein: —ofwhetherornotI’msayingacontentwordorjustlikeaglueword.It’sjustthenextword.Yeah.

MattAbrahams: There’ssuchapowerfullessoninthat,Ithink,inmeetingsandininteractions.WefeellikeI’vegottodoagreatjobhere.

DanKlein: Andsometimesthebestthingyoucandoiseithersaynothingorjustparaphrasewhatwassaid.Reallypowerful.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Orjustlisten.Yeah.

DanKlein: Orjustlisten.Yeah.

MattAbrahams: Patricia,I’dliketocometoyouwithournexttwoquestionsifyoudon’tmind.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Okay.Gosh.

MattAbrahams: Who’sacommunicatorthatyouadmireandwhy?

PatriciaRyanMadson: Hm.Ithinkinthepastfewyears,I’vecometorespectBarackObamagreatly.There’ssomethingabouthisleadershipandthewayhespoke,whichseemedtomenaturalandbelievable,thatwassomethingweneededinpoliticsandintheworld.SoIthinkObamawouldbeapersonthatIadmireforhisspeechandhiscommunicationskills.

MattAbrahams: Absolutely.Somebodyothershavementionedandforallthesamereasonsthatyoudid.LastquestionI’dliketoask:Whatarethefirstthreeingredientsthatgointoasuccessfulcommunicationrecipe?Adamsaidcinnamonlasttime,soweknowcinnamonisneeded.

PatriciaRyanMadson: Trustyourself.Careabouttheotherperson.Andhavefun.

MattAbrahams: Iloveit.Havefun,trustyourself,careabouttheotherperson.Thankyou.Thankyouallforjoiningmeonceagain.I’mgoingtoendthepodcast.AndAdam,sinceyouaresuchagreatgibberishtranslator,I’dloveitforyoutotranslatemyendingintogibberish,ifyoudon’tmind.Wouldthatbeallright?

MattAbrahams: Well,ahugethankyoutoallofyouforcomingandjoiningus.Patricia,Dan,andAdam,itwaswonderfultobebackwithsomeofyouandtoincludePatriciawithus.Andtheconceptsandideaswetalkedabout,trustingourselves,helpingothers,listening—socritical.Andhere’stoanotherhundredepisodes.I’dlovetohaveyoubackat200.Andwiththat,thankyoutoyou,andthankyoutoourlisteners.

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